Cesare Borgia (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
maleborgia) wrote2010-08-16 03:41 am
maleborgia) wrote2010-08-16 03:41 am
Entry tags:
Youth v. Adulthood
Although I did go into the series with preconceived notions about who Cesare was, I am very aware of how I am playing a particular character and not the image I have of the historical person. To make it easier for myself, I've been focusing on the fact that Cesare in this series is still sixteen, whereas most of the information I have been gathering on his life is from after he turned twenty-four. They're not the same person! There are strong similarities (otherwise I wouldn't have been able to app him), but there are also distinct differences in temperament and belief.
I took the Dante's Inferno Test for both of them and posted their results below. It actually sums up things pretty nicely and helped me get my thoughts together to explain it better. The first set of results are based off of the Cesare in camp. The second set is based off of what I know of the historical Cesare as an adult.
The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Fifth Level of Hell!
Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Take the Dante's Inferno Hell Test
The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Eigth Level of Hell - the Malebolge!
Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Take the Dante Inferno Hell Test
Purgatory (Repenting Believers) [High/Very Low]: Cesare spent his earliest years raised in Vannozza's household with his siblings. He wasn't taken away to be educated in the households of other family members until he was reaching the age of reason (canon says seven years old). Vannozza was known to be a devout Christian and certainly would have influenced her children's faith. Lucrezia, at least, was seen as an adult to believe strongly in God and worshiped regularly. Canonically, Cesare states that he wants to become a tool of God. He has no doubts about God's existence and is well-versed in theology.
As an adult, Cesare's ideas about God become more complicated. While I highly doubt he was what we would today call an atheist, he certainly was not religious. Cesare never held great respect for the practices of the Church (and canon never disputes this, showing him untonsured and with his multiple benefices as he decries various religious groups), much like many living in the Italian peninsula at his time. The Avignon Captivity and the schisms were still fresh in the collective memory and the Church had lost much of the authority it had once claimed. Cesare was not the only one to be disillusioned with the Church as a spiritual institution, although he fully appreciated its potential as a political one. In short, he still believes in God but not in the Church. He also feels less strongly than he used to about the potential for God to intervene in the human world and sees success or failure far less a divine act than a human one. He has become more jaded and feels that God is much more removed from the human plane than he once did.
Level 1-Limbo (Virtuous Non-Believers) [Low/Very Low]: Basically neither scored very high here because neither properly qualify as non-believers. They both believe in God, although they disagree on his role. Older Cesare scored lower because the test marked him as less virtuous, although he would disagree with that. ...This really comes down to a matter of semantics.
Level 2 (Lustful) [Low/High]:At sixteen it was very possible that Cesare was already very sexually experienced. (At the very least, he certainly knows enough to joke about it.) He wasn't married, however, and there's no information one way or the other from either canon or actual historical documents. I gave him the benefit of the doubt on most of the questions pertaining to this. LOL NEW CANON this score should definitely be raised ♥
And then puberty kicked in. As an adult, Cesare had several well-publicized affairs with various women. Homosexual relations certainly weren't unheard of either (and could carry stigma to a greater or lesser degree), so it's possible he had sexual relations with other men as well. If he did, however, they were few and far between--or kept very well concealed. No rumors about this ever circulated although his other affairs were talked about even beyond the peninsula. Cesare also threw some damn fine sexy parties that just by themselves would have warranted him this score.
Level 3 (Gluttonous) [Moderate/Very Low]: Not that Cesare was ever particularly gluttonous--I think this score is probably just reflecting that he was wealthy and could afford to eat well. When he is an adult, he spends more of his time traveling and performing military maneuvers. Most of the money he has goes into his army and fortifications.
Level 4 (Prodigal and Avaricious) [Low/Low]: Cesare's father was a keen businessman and for the most part Cesare inherited this skill. In canon and as an adult, Cesare sees money not as something to horde but as something to put to work. What he does with this money changes but the basic idea behind it is the same.
Level 5 (Wrathful and Gloomy) [High/Very High]: This is where canon!Cesare was banished to by the test. Cesare has several fight scenes in canon and this is probably pretty accurate, although there isn't much biographical information about his time in the university. He fights both when attacked and when his pride or beliefs are threatened and does a good job of it. There are some very slight hints at another dark side of his personality but this is not explored. As a teenager, however, some gloom would be to be expected.
Cesare scored higher as an adult in large part actually not because of the anger but because of the depression. There are several contemporary accounts of his behavior that indicate he was prone to periods of depression, although the information is too patchy to say much more beside that. There are arguments over whether or not his death was a form of suicide (Lucrezia appeared to believe it was) but it is clear that while some of his bouts of despair were understandable, others were less rational. I don't know to what extent this was something he dealt with as a teenager, but I would assume it was present to some degree. Cesare also scored higher as an adult because he becomes gonfalionere, or captain general of the Church. It is also as an adult that he gains his reputation (not always deserved but, yeah, still true) for vindictiveness.
Level 6-The City of Dis (Heretics) [Very Low/Low]: Neither Cesare scored high here, either, because neither were heretical. While they both had problems with things in the Church and did not always agree with its actions, neither fundamentally questioned the doctrines. Depending on how you want to look at it, Alexander VI and Cesare's dynastic ambitions were to the strength of the church. This can be argued either way, though.
Level 7 (Violent) [Low/High]: Like with Level 5, this rises when Cesare is an adult more because of his changing circumstances than because of any real shift in personality or character. A military leader should score higher here than a schoolboy.
Level 8-The Malebolge (Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers) [High, Very High]: Adult!Cesare was banished here by the quiz and he, both canon and adult, is very capable of lying. He understands himself to be in a world where it is necessary to think more than you speak and to be able to entertain two contradictory opinions at the same time. He is duplicitous. He is willing to do many things if it means getting ahead and he is a very skilled actor and salesman. Although Machiavelli does not say much about this in The Prince, he makes it very clear in his reports back to Florence when he was stationed with Cesare's forces that this was something that greatly impressed him.
Level 9-Cocytus (Treacherous) [Low, High]: Again, the difference in the scores has more to do with circumstances than character. At the age of sixteen, Cesare has never had the opportunity or any real reason to turn traitor. This is very different as an adult and he manages to carry out a trap against many of his leading captains (who were, actually, plotting against him... because they thought he would betray them in the future...) which many in Italy applauded as being truly masterful. At the same time, however, he would not have seen himself as being a traitor if he had been asked. He was very careful to honor bonds of loyalty until they were broken by the other party and in fact never killed the captain who was a member of the Order of Michael with him and who had had little to do with the planned c'oup. Cesare was also very loyal to the men of lesser rank who worked under him and many of his soldiers remained faithful to him even after he was removed from power. Miguel de Corella, who features in canon, also stayed loyal to him and refused to give up information about him after he was deposed, even under lengthy torture. None of this might have happened in canon, but that Cesare has much the same ideas about loyalty and treachery and they are reflected in the results.
I took the Dante's Inferno Test for both of them and posted their results below. It actually sums up things pretty nicely and helped me get my thoughts together to explain it better. The first set of results are based off of the Cesare in camp. The second set is based off of what I know of the historical Cesare as an adult.
The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Fifth Level of Hell!
Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
| Level | Score |
|---|---|
| Purgatory (Repenting Believers) | High |
| Level 1 - Limbo (Virtuous Non-Believers) | Low |
| Level 2 (Lustful) | Low |
| Level 3 (Gluttonous) | Moderate |
| Level 4 (Prodigal and Avaricious) | Low |
| Level 5 (Wrathful and Gloomy) | High |
| Level 6 - The City of Dis (Heretics) | Very Low |
| Level 7 (Violent) | Low |
| Level 8- the Malebolge (Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers) | High |
| Level 9 - Cocytus (Treacherous) | Low |
Take the Dante's Inferno Hell Test
The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Eigth Level of Hell - the Malebolge!
Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
| Level | Score |
|---|---|
| Purgatory (Repenting Believers) | Very Low |
| Level 1 - Limbo (Virtuous Non-Believers) | Very Low |
| Level 2 (Lustful) | High |
| Level 3 (Gluttonous) | Very Low |
| Level 4 (Prodigal and Avaricious) | Low |
| Level 5 (Wrathful and Gloomy) | Very High |
| Level 6 - The City of Dis (Heretics) | Low |
| Level 7 (Violent) | High |
| Level 8- the Malebolge (Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers) | Very High |
| Level 9 - Cocytus (Treacherous) | High |
Take the Dante Inferno Hell Test
Purgatory (Repenting Believers) [High/Very Low]: Cesare spent his earliest years raised in Vannozza's household with his siblings. He wasn't taken away to be educated in the households of other family members until he was reaching the age of reason (canon says seven years old). Vannozza was known to be a devout Christian and certainly would have influenced her children's faith. Lucrezia, at least, was seen as an adult to believe strongly in God and worshiped regularly. Canonically, Cesare states that he wants to become a tool of God. He has no doubts about God's existence and is well-versed in theology.
As an adult, Cesare's ideas about God become more complicated. While I highly doubt he was what we would today call an atheist, he certainly was not religious. Cesare never held great respect for the practices of the Church (and canon never disputes this, showing him untonsured and with his multiple benefices as he decries various religious groups), much like many living in the Italian peninsula at his time. The Avignon Captivity and the schisms were still fresh in the collective memory and the Church had lost much of the authority it had once claimed. Cesare was not the only one to be disillusioned with the Church as a spiritual institution, although he fully appreciated its potential as a political one. In short, he still believes in God but not in the Church. He also feels less strongly than he used to about the potential for God to intervene in the human world and sees success or failure far less a divine act than a human one. He has become more jaded and feels that God is much more removed from the human plane than he once did.
Level 1-Limbo (Virtuous Non-Believers) [Low/Very Low]: Basically neither scored very high here because neither properly qualify as non-believers. They both believe in God, although they disagree on his role. Older Cesare scored lower because the test marked him as less virtuous, although he would disagree with that. ...This really comes down to a matter of semantics.
Level 2 (Lustful) [Low/High]:
Level 3 (Gluttonous) [Moderate/Very Low]: Not that Cesare was ever particularly gluttonous--I think this score is probably just reflecting that he was wealthy and could afford to eat well. When he is an adult, he spends more of his time traveling and performing military maneuvers. Most of the money he has goes into his army and fortifications.
Level 4 (Prodigal and Avaricious) [Low/Low]: Cesare's father was a keen businessman and for the most part Cesare inherited this skill. In canon and as an adult, Cesare sees money not as something to horde but as something to put to work. What he does with this money changes but the basic idea behind it is the same.
Level 5 (Wrathful and Gloomy) [High/Very High]: This is where canon!Cesare was banished to by the test. Cesare has several fight scenes in canon and this is probably pretty accurate, although there isn't much biographical information about his time in the university. He fights both when attacked and when his pride or beliefs are threatened and does a good job of it. There are some very slight hints at another dark side of his personality but this is not explored. As a teenager, however, some gloom would be to be expected.
Cesare scored higher as an adult in large part actually not because of the anger but because of the depression. There are several contemporary accounts of his behavior that indicate he was prone to periods of depression, although the information is too patchy to say much more beside that. There are arguments over whether or not his death was a form of suicide (Lucrezia appeared to believe it was) but it is clear that while some of his bouts of despair were understandable, others were less rational. I don't know to what extent this was something he dealt with as a teenager, but I would assume it was present to some degree. Cesare also scored higher as an adult because he becomes gonfalionere, or captain general of the Church. It is also as an adult that he gains his reputation (not always deserved but, yeah, still true) for vindictiveness.
Level 6-The City of Dis (Heretics) [Very Low/Low]: Neither Cesare scored high here, either, because neither were heretical. While they both had problems with things in the Church and did not always agree with its actions, neither fundamentally questioned the doctrines. Depending on how you want to look at it, Alexander VI and Cesare's dynastic ambitions were to the strength of the church. This can be argued either way, though.
Level 7 (Violent) [Low/High]: Like with Level 5, this rises when Cesare is an adult more because of his changing circumstances than because of any real shift in personality or character. A military leader should score higher here than a schoolboy.
Level 8-The Malebolge (Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers) [High, Very High]: Adult!Cesare was banished here by the quiz and he, both canon and adult, is very capable of lying. He understands himself to be in a world where it is necessary to think more than you speak and to be able to entertain two contradictory opinions at the same time. He is duplicitous. He is willing to do many things if it means getting ahead and he is a very skilled actor and salesman. Although Machiavelli does not say much about this in The Prince, he makes it very clear in his reports back to Florence when he was stationed with Cesare's forces that this was something that greatly impressed him.
Level 9-Cocytus (Treacherous) [Low, High]: Again, the difference in the scores has more to do with circumstances than character. At the age of sixteen, Cesare has never had the opportunity or any real reason to turn traitor. This is very different as an adult and he manages to carry out a trap against many of his leading captains (who were, actually, plotting against him... because they thought he would betray them in the future...) which many in Italy applauded as being truly masterful. At the same time, however, he would not have seen himself as being a traitor if he had been asked. He was very careful to honor bonds of loyalty until they were broken by the other party and in fact never killed the captain who was a member of the Order of Michael with him and who had had little to do with the planned c'oup. Cesare was also very loyal to the men of lesser rank who worked under him and many of his soldiers remained faithful to him even after he was removed from power. Miguel de Corella, who features in canon, also stayed loyal to him and refused to give up information about him after he was deposed, even under lengthy torture. None of this might have happened in canon, but that Cesare has much the same ideas about loyalty and treachery and they are reflected in the results.